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| Christian/Atheist Dialog With August Berkshire and Jeff and Lee - Atheists Talk #030 Aug 3, 2008 |
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Jeff Shell and Lee Michaels step into our studio this week for a conversation with President of Minnesota Atheists, August Berkshire. Why Jeff and Lee? They host a Christian talk radio show, "KKMS Live with Jeff and Lee," and have featured August as a guest on their show. As a show of "good faith," pardon the pun, they have agreed to visit Atheists Talk.
KKMS AND "JEFF AND LEE"
MINNESOTA ATHEISTS & AUGUST BERKSHIRE
BIBLICALPROPHECY FULFILLMENT: PRO AND CON
OTHERATHEIST MATERIAL
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Listen to AM 950 KTNF on Sunday at 9AM Central to hear Atheists Talk produced by Minnesota Atheists. Stream live online. Call the studio at 952-946-6205 or email us at
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Comments (4)
rob barrett
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jeff and lee interview What a fun show! I really enjoyed your conversation. August, you have one of the great all time names. Thanks again for having them on. peace, Rob B |
Mark Plus
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Does hell give life meaning? Christians claim that life has no meaning if we just die and vanish. If some of us go to hell after we die instead, does that give our lives meaning? |
DagoRed
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......... Faced with the MOST basic question -- why do you choose to explain the "unknown" by believing in an entirely undetectable realm rather than looking for a more plausible natural explanation that everyone can plainly understand, out trots the caveat, "I'm not a theologian...I have to think about that...some of these things you come to grips with in your heart..." Yet, this guy is absolutely positive that God and his supernatural realm are both real? Talking about putting the cart before the horse! |
Natasha Cramer
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... Dearest August, (PS. I'll just get this out of the way first: I'm so sorry this is so long!) I listened to your conversations in the KKMS broadcast "Understanding and Responding to Atheist's Beliefs", and had a few ideas needing clarification, or on which I simply wanted your feedback. First, did you say that, of the two categories of Atheists, those in your category don't believe in anything - or - assertively believe there are no Gods? Are they the same? If not, I'm pretty sure you said the latter on the program, but I'm also pretty sure the former is expressed on this website. Also, I must admit, I was a bit surprised upon visitng the website, how much the bloggers enjoy talking about Christianity. I do understand that a majority of US citizens are Christians, so a number of Atheists are therefore strongly and closely influenced by that presence. But I guess I expected to see more talk about what is distinctly Atheist instead of what Atheism is not. So, I had some thoughts. You mentioned that you think humans in this era no longer have need of religion, because of the advanced state of our civilization. But I find it difficult to support some of the predictions that religion will be abandoned in favor of Atheism, when it seems present Atheists have a hard time defining themselves without the presence of religions. Do you see my dilemma? Perhaps it's easily explained, but I do hope you'll share your thoughts. Further, I dwelled on the idea of what it would be like if this were actually ever the case. I thought about a child asking questions, as they do, of their mentor/parent/what-have-you. I need your help with the conversation, though. Child: "where did humans come from?" Mentor: *explains that most believe in evolution beginning from microscopic organisms* Child: "so how did the world begin?" Mentor: *explains there are a few theories on how the universe started, but no one knows for sure* Child: "you mean, no one knows what was before the universe and how it started?" Mentor: "no" Child: "could there have been a whole 'nuther universe before, with aliens and spaceships and stuff?" Mentor: "maybe" Child: "If there were really big aliens, and they had superpowers, could they have made our universe, and they're still there and we just don't know, 'cause they're SO big?" Mentor: "no" Child: "why not?" Does this make sense? You had mentioned in your conversation, that the burden of proof was on those supporting their religions. But I feel in the above scenario, the burden of proof is on the Mentor for the absence of a creator, in order to keep the child from forming his/her own religion to explain the origin of the universe. It occured to me: it seems odd that humans have been intensely interested in finding out where they came from and what the beginning of the world/universe is, since the beginning of recorded human history (as demonstrated by god worship - and who knows how much time before that). I don't know how this concern for origin developed in our psyche. Was it at all helpful to our survival as a race? I understand your argument for the benefit we derive from emotions. But how does evolution fit into the desire to explain creation? Personally, I think this is a strong implication that there actually is a god, and an intimate one at that. It would make complete sense to me that God, from who's love - being His very essence as they say "God is love" - sprang life. This is mimicked in the act of "love-making" of humans - which begets life. And it would make sense that a God who is love would want everything to know Him, aka. know love. So to know perfect love is to know God. But to be able to understand love, you must be able to choose it, and to celebrate it, the subject of your love must choose you. I hope this is all in order. I do hope you'll call me out on anything I've assumed incorrectly. So from God sprang life, sprang creation. His prized subjects, those with the choice, also had an appreciation for love, as perfect love is perfect charity, peace and goodness. But how can a finite (for if something is created, it cannot be infinite) understand infinite perfection? It can't. So humans are in a paradise, loved perfectly, and it would be wholly appropriate, good and loving to live in this love and recognize the goodness forever. But how can we know that we are loving when we've never not loved, not felt loved, or not been loved? How do we know what it means? Adam and Eve learned that by not appreciating God's love (by not trusting Him to love them enough to care for their every need, and look after their total good - aka the fruit represented fear that God was limited, that God was deceitful, or God wouldn't supply), by trying to protect themselves from God, they were not loving God. They chose it this way, even though He warned them that they would die. Notice death is opposite life. Love begets life, thus the perfect opposite that removing love would remove life. But the "downfall" does not erase the fact that humanity is still the direct offspring from God's love. Thus, I think it the curiosity about our origin is an automatic gift infused in our humanity that drives us to find peace, love and happiness. Since God is love itself, His passionate desire is that everyone would know Him, and they look for Him. And He reveals Himself wherever people are willing to look. However, as clearly pointed out in the story of Adam and Eve, love is not the basis of every human action. Anything done, said, thought out of fear will lead to the misfortune of many. As many psychologists may say, however, a serious problem is that humans have a very difficult time recognizing when and which of their actions are genuinly out of love and which are out of fear (of not surving, not being comfortable, happy, heard, noticed, loved... etc). That is why the Bible in its entirety is referred to as the "story of our salvation". It is the extensive process of God trying to reveal His love to people where they are looking, and trying to show them the places where it will be easiest, or hardest, to find Him (and I don't mean geographically). When people don't even know that they are looking for love, how do you teach them to look for it? Like a child, you sometimes have to make allowances for less than perfect behavior while you're trying to make them pay attention to the really important things, for fear they will be overwhelmed and give up, or loose confidence in themselves, because they feel they are idiots. You love them! You gave birth to them! How heartbreaking it is to witness a child beat him/herself up (sometimes physically) for "not being good enough". So, you let the child pick their nose, harass the cat, fry ants with a magnifying glass, while you focus more on sharing and telling the truth, spending time with family, etc. This is just like the chosen people of God, the Jews. For all their atrocities and aweful laws (most of which I must point out, the Bible says were not from God, but because the people wanted them and had hardened hearts. I'm inclined to mention that Jesus expressed disapproval of such laws, when He stood between the adulturess and the people, who were to deliver lawful punishment.), God sought endlessly to teach them that love is equally feeling and practice, because one bears the other. And finally, as promised, He showed up Himself to show them How it was done. |
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