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| God and Abortion |
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by August Berkshire
Beginning with some premises (#1-6) that few Religious Right anti-choice people would disagree with, we follow with a scientific fact (#7), leading to a couple surprising conclusions (#8-9).
(January 22, 2009 marks the 36th anniversary of the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Roe v. Wade legalizing abortion.)
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Comments (16)
Natasha Cramer
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... This subject is quite difficult to address briefly, but I'll try my best. I'll start with a general statement, that One should not use known concepts from the Bible, much less any piece of literature or teaching, when One has little idea of the foundation of those concepts. I can make a simple diagram on how Amadeus Mozart was fan of Elvis Presley because Elvis was a favored musician. But you have to know when the two were alive to realize that this is an illogical statement. To begin simply, under the 'God concept' - as represented in the Bible from which statements 1-6 were derived - we are all created by Him and He thus calls us His children. To use a metaphor, I think responsible abortion-supporting mothers, at least, would agree, that it would not be a good idea to leave 'population control' amongst her children... for the children themselves to decide and enforce, no matter how old they are. #7 and #8 are rather unexpected statements, as spontaneity is not really the 'cause' of the failed egg. Rather the process is observable, as cells will die, body will reject foreign organisms, and the process is quite natural. Either way, it cannot really be explained that God Himself is doing the aborting. Perhaps the real miracle is when the egg is actually sustained. #5 I must point out is incredibly inaccurate. At no point does the Bible say "imitate God". On the contrary, in Genesis, it was Satan who said if Eve ate of the fruit that she would be like God. But this is also regarded by the rest of the entire Bible as the first sin, being that Eve was tempted to no longer trust in the omniscience (all-knowingness) and goodness of God - preferring rather to satisfy immediate curiosity. The Bible does however contain expressions that we should imitate Jesus Christ, who was only so-named upon His incarnation. During His life, He was humble, gracious, wise and servile. And He never killed, nor told anyone to kill, but allowed, knowingly, Himself to be killed. |
August Berkshire
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... If God is all-good and we imitate him, how can we fail to be good ourselves? Are you saying that God is setting a bad example? The Religious Right believes that Jesus IS God. Thus, to imitate Jesus, as the Bible commands, is to imitate God. There are many reasons that spontaneous abortions occur. A small minority of them can be blamed on humans (example: alcoholism). However, the vast majority of spontaneous abortions happen because godless evolution designed the system to be good enough but not perfect. However, a Religious Right person believes that God created everything and has the power to change anything he wants to change. Thus God is the world's biggest abortionist. So, my conclusion is valid, that humans should have more abortions. It's what God would want us to do. |
Natasha Cramer
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... Dear August, A perspective that I think the Bible intends us to take is that we are not to imitate God's actions, of themselves, because we are not omniscient and cannot know the perfect good completely. We are also not omnipotent, so we could not be able to do what He is recorded to have done. But I tried to distinguish, that Jesus was only referred to as Jesus upon His conception, and it is stated specifically that it is Jesus we imitate. We should then assume that it is Jesus' relations with people that we should focus on. I'm not sure to whom you're referring, when you say "Religious Right". I do know that some Christian religions are not dissuaded from believing that God created everything and everything in natural order. There's no reason (that I know of) why some theories of evolution should not be integrated into our understanding and appreciation of God's design. I personally believe God gave us ability to logic that similar to His, though so painfully limited. So, though God has the power, He also has given an order to things, plus He allows each person to choose how they arrange each moment of their being. He will only involve Himself so much as to still give us room to choose to listen to His Reason or to search elsewhere for answers. |
Crystal Dervetski
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... Well, frankly, I've had tons of abortions, and I've never felt quite so godly. Thanks for the advice, August! :) |
Thomas Kirk
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... Well I certainly hope no one imitates the Biblical god in the way s/he committed genocide against the Midianites (if the Bible can be believed) and the way s/he silently tolerated the Inquisitions and the Holocaust! |
August Berkshire
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... Some women complain when "God" is referred to as "he." But if we're talking about the Biblical god, women should be glad they are not associated with it! I don't know who said this, but it is brilliant: "If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament." |
Crystal Dervetski
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... Here's my update: "If men could get pregnant, then fundagelical men and women would be equally crazy in their abortion views." lol. :) I really don't know about them anymore, after the whole 'condom burning' thing... Seriously. |
Natasha Cramer
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... Condom burning? Er... hmmmm. I'm not sure if this is jest that the Biblical God actually would support abortion, if it's interpreted as taking a life. Certainly God allows humans to sin, and died Himself - so He knows the tragedy and pain of it - but a quote, albeit from a different context, comes to mind "what God hath joined, let no one tear asunder". This was about marriage, granted, but I think this idea is easily transferred to other contexts throughout the Bible. What God has made, let no one destroy, essentially. |
August Berkshire
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... So God is doing something (creating a system that leads to abortions) that he doesn't want us to imitate? This would mean that God is setting a bad example. He wouldn't do something like that, now, would he? |
Crystal Dervetski
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... Sorry, the condom burning: Rick Warren, amongst many other fundies, support 'condom burning' in Africa, and elsewhere. For example, the idea that people shouldn't use condoms, that STDs such as AIDs are a punishment from god so you deserve them, etc. So yeah, I'm not a fan of that. (Not that I promote abortion either, obviously!) |
Natasha Cramer
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... Dear August, I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "creating a system that leads to abortions". Are you talking about natural fetus death in the womb? If that's so, I'd have to remind you that there was no death designed by God in the original creation. Adam and Eve would not have died, nor would there have been any fetus death had they not sinned. So there isn't anything He's doing to be interpreted as a bad example. Dear Crystal, I'd have to agree, that I'm not a fan of that either:) I certainly don't believe AIDS is a punishment from God. I think it's pretty safe to say, that if you have sex with an AIDS-carrying person, you will increase your likeliness to contract it, and if you're born with it, you got it from your mother. It's pretty well-known scientifically how it's contracted. In reality, everyone suffers to a degree in countless ways; it's the direct result of the decision of Adam and Eve, that they didn't need or trust God to take care of them. Billions of ways to live your life, all will involve suffering in some way: diseases of the mind and body, pain in losing a loved one... and everything ends eventually in death. The Catholic approach to this, is that there are many ways to deal with this pain and suffering. Many people get mad, bitter, depressed, lethargic, self absorbed, paranoid, etc. But the example of Jesus as he expressed in the garden before His crucifixion, was that, even though the world's present condition will always perpetuate pain (because of the way people react already as aforementioned), but we can choose to love others, forgive others, pray for others and take courage, is redemptive - not only for you for the ways you've reacted to perpetuate the pain to others, but also redemptive for others via your prayers for them and your example to them to stop the cycle and start cycles which heal the pain. |
Mike Haubrich, FCD
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... I'm sorry, Natasha, I am just not buying that the reason that there is pain and suffering is because Adam and Eve were not fully trusting. According to the story, they succumbed to both curiosity and temptation; not lack of trust in God to take care of them. It still makes no sense, because humans are not the only animals to suffer. Animals suffer greatly at the hands of both man and nature, and they get no salvation for their troubles. They merely contribute to the circle of life, decomposing after they die and feeding other life. The violence towards animals is senseless, spiritually, and yet they were also without suffering or death before "the Fall." Jesus never came to save the animals, he only came to save Man, right? If I may bring it back to abortion, though, we have the issue of eternal salvation. Some religions teach that fetuses and children who die before he age of discernment are admitted into heaven without accepting "the sacrifice." Even the Church has changed its stance on Limbo. Hector Avaolos wrote a great essay at "Talkreason.org" on the concept that for the sake of their eternal soul it is indeed immoral to allow children to be born. By allowing them to be born, they are then given the opportunity to reject the sacrifice of Jesus and then go to Hell. If then, they are born and never get evangelized it is better for them to have never been born. Catholics and those who believe that Salvation is a "choice" should in fact be for abortion. Abortion may terminate the life that for all of us is temporary and corporeal, yet it gives the fetus a Golden Ticket through the Pearly Gates. Ramen. |
Natasha Cramer
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... I'm a little uncertain about this. You do realize that either of your last two paragraphs would suggest that those supporters ultimately are intent on achieving the extinction of humanity right? No born babies = no people. Also, every person is not born solely for their own salvation, but also to help bring the living to God. So by taking their life, you also cut off ANY opportunity they have to bring love and peace to others. |
Crystal Dervetski
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... An invitation awaits you at my blog: http://sunnyskeptic.wordpress....olunteers/ Hope to see you there! Thanks for the inspiration. |
Eric Jayne
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... God is omniscient and omnipotent. He created everything and He knows everything. God created every atom in the universe, including the mass of atoms that make up Adam, Eve, and the human reproductive system. He set the reproductive replication and mutation evolutionary system in process. And He knows all. If you believe this then you must accept that God condones abortions. If God is omniscient then he knew the world and humans would be sinful. But to discuss this ancient science fiction story known as Christianity (or any of the Abrahamic religions) as truth and apply reason to it is like discussing Harry Potter as truth and applying reason to it. Natasha, to be completely and brutally honest, your theological beliefs are complete and utter nonsense. |
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